• Jessica

    Hi, I don’t know if I belong here but, I sometimes feel like I am with a narc. Or am I the narc? I don’t know if narc is even the right term for what I deal with. Is there a a list of what is considered narc behavior.? Or am I just sensitive?. If anyone could help thank u, I’m struggling.

    December 27, 2015
    • Lucy Rising

      Hello Jessica, I apologize that it appears I failed to approve or address your comment and now it has been over two months since you posted! I swear I replied in some fashion but it seems not.

      As this blog post pointed out, many hypersensitive people doubt themselves when the narcissist in their lives suggests they are the narcissistic one. Honestly, the best way to tell if you are the narc is to ask yourself if you’ve ever felt shame over your actions, or if you’ve ever felt truly sorry for another person. Narcissists are incapable of either. They can behave on the outside like they are ashamed or sympathetic, but the proof is in the pudding and eventually they give away that it was only acting. Mod 1 of Lucy Rising presents a lot of information on narc behavior, so perusing that Mod will present the detail you are looking for.

      February 08, 2016
  • Elaine

    How do I know that I’m not just making excuses for my own issues and blaming my mother? I’ve taken all the quizes I can find and they all come out the same- She is a narc and I am messed up. But how do I know I am answering right? Maybe I am answering wrong on purpose in order to blame her. I’m not trying to answer the questions wrong. But how do I know that I didn’t cause the things she has said. I was stubborn and independent, I really may have been difficult to raise, I was/am clumsy and careless, I do have stringy hair, large butt and thighs, longer than normal neck, I am really not that interesting (my brain does not hold onto details or recall names of things very well- example, it took me forever to remember the name for toile- the french patterned fabric((silly))). All these are truths, how can I blame HER for that?

    I can’t remember every situation with her, it’s an ongoing FEELING of worthlessness and not trusting people that I want changed but how fair is it if I am really messed up to blame her. What if she isn’t this way? What if I don’t see the shame or guilt because she isn’t to blame?

    I do some of these things with my kids. I have yelled at them when I am stressed. I used to give my husband the silent treatment early in our marriage. What if I am really the narcissist that is calling her the narcissist? I see what you say about feeling the shame and guilt and not being a N but how can I trust that is really what I do feel (shame and guilt?) but could I not be using those in order to better place blame on her?

    I’m just not certain of my perspective. She never physically abused me. I am an adult with feelings of worthlessness is all. How do I know it’s not just my brain that is messed up and nothing to do with her?


    April 12, 2016
    • Lucy Rising

      Elaine, I can tell from the way you speak of yourself that your self-esteem and self-compassion are really low. And considering the number of people who have never even HEARD of toile, there’s no reason to feel bad if you have trouble recalling the word on a particular day–how uninteresting can you be if you were trying to talk about “toile”?

      You speak precisely like a person who has been trained to take the blame for everything and endlessly doubt what your own thoughts and feelings are telling you…in short, like a classic narc victim. There is not one word you say here, nor one thought that you express, that shows the slightest indication that you are a narcissist yourself.

      Your self-assessment is not so much full of “truths” as it is of interpretations. I’m sure your mother pointed out on a regular basis that you were “stubborn and independent,” probably when you were doing nothing worse than disagreeing with her or articulating your own opinion. The length of your neck and size of your butt and thighs are relative…and even if you are not precisely “average” on these counts, they are matters of no consequence as far as how good or lovable a person you are. “Clumsy” and “careless” are also descriptions that cruel parents impose upon their children, when they are in fact no more clumsy and careless than anyone else.

      As I point out in the Lucy Rising program, emotional abuse is often more damaging and insidious than physical abuse. The wounds and scars, being invisible, aren’t handy proof that we’ve been hurt. But believe me, narc abuse is some of the most damaging cruelty a person can inflict. Do not belittle your experiences because you didn’t get physical bruises from them.

      If you can find your way to really feeling compassion for yourself, for listening to yourself and believing in your feelings and giving yourself credit for being able to see reality, the programming that has been done to you by your mother will start to lose its grip. Silence that voice inside you that always insists on giving her the benefit of the doubt. If you feel blame towards her, then listen to that–give it credence for awhile and see if possibly you aren’t actually right! Your opinions and feelings are valid and shouldn’t be shot down.

      The first days of considering you might be a narc victim are always, above all else, extremely confusing. It all takes a lot of sorting out. I hope you will start with Mod 1 of Lucy Rising and work your way through at a comfortable pace, taking time to understand it all and re-evaluate your life. I know that bit by bit you’ll find more clarity and begin to make sense of what you find so baffling right now.

      But trust me–you’re not a narcissist and you give every indication of being a victim instead. I hope this helps and do write again if you have questions on the program! Hugs to you.

      April 12, 2016
  • D Rap

    I think there might be too many labels, esp when it comes to family. There’s an “ownership” involved, where they think they can work out their issues on you/treat you like crap and you won’t go anywhere.

    I think the test is when you do go and stay gone — and they don’t even try to bullshit you with an explanation or apology to get you back. Or if they try to take down (and not just yap, but work really hard like a lion killing a gazelle taking down) anyone who doesn’t think/act/believe like they do. Or if a conversation ABOUT NOTHING deviates from them being the center of attention they fight like hell to get it back.

    Your mother sounds just like my grandmother — and then I lived for her for a while and realized she’s a true gazelle-killing narc (and I’m pushing 50 and she was still talking to me like your mom talks to you). It’s been 2 years since I kicked her ass to the curb; nice and quiet now. (I had to move out of state to get away from my mother the martyr though….never ends).

    Much Luck and Take Care!

    April 19, 2016
    • Lucy Rising

      D Rap, great points throughout. Good for you for having the strength to rise above your narcs! Thanks for your encouragement to Elaine.

      April 19, 2016
  • TryingToGoHighAndNotStoopToNarcissist'sLowLevel

    Thank you for your post. It really helps to know I am not alone. A woman who befriended me online in 2008 (all friendly comms documented) stole my husband and is now using every tactic in the narcissist rule book, including calling me the narcissist. She has no remorse for her deceptions from Day 1, and plays the victim – whilst at the same time baits me to respond to her consistent nasty posts about my husband and my failed IVF attempts (and her supposed pregnancy from her affair with my husband which supposedly ended in miscarriage even though my husband never saw any reports on the pregnancy itself), my weight, etc etc and even has recently posted a joke about how funny it would be for me to slide into a wood chipper. I’ve got this all documented. But the most frustrating part is that she feels compelled to cause the chaos and bully me online…and yet I am not allowed to stand up for myself and respond to her lies? If I must remain silent or face her threats of legal action? I’m sorry, what?!? Doesn’t make sense to me.

    September 03, 2017
    • Lucy Rising

      What a nightmare, Annie! I know well from experience how terrible it is to go through something like this. It’s one of the more maddening problems that can result from a relationship with a narcissist. The main joy a narc derives from this kind of bullying is the feeling of power they get from being able to make you upset and get a rise out of you. When you respond you’re giving them exactly what they want and making them happy, and it will just encourage them to continue the abuse. On the other hand, nothing makes a narcissist more miserable than being ignored, and when you do so you’re getting your best revenge. I understand when the abuse is happening publicly you want to go on record as opposing the abusive statements, for the sake of others reading the exchange. Probably those who know you (and definitely those who care about you) won’t listen to the narc anyway. But if you have any doubts, then simply post “Your accusations are untrue and I won’t dignify them with any further response” and leave it at that. Then, for the sake of your own peace of mind, stop reading the narcissist’s posts. No good comes from any kind of contact with them at all. The best thing you can do is block them on social media, avoid all contact, and move on with your recovery and your life. Fighting back only hurts you–there is nothing you can say that will change them or their behavior and you are only giving them the attention they crave, continuing in your role as their victim.

      September 04, 2017
  • Elisa

    I’m glad this has been articulated.
    I even prefer to avoid terms like “narcissist” (at least for the most part) since it tends to go along with the scapegoating mentality that IS narcissism. It is anti-relationship.

    I think this dynamic is what keeps a dysfunctional relationship “working” , and working more for the ‘dominant’ one. There will be no getting through to them.

    I think that before blame even gets assigned, that it is really useful to simply step away and look at it from an overall/relationship perspective. That one does not need APPROVAL from the other to know one’s own feelings. Shitty people will insist that this is wrong, because they have a parasitic way of relating with others, whereby they never really acknowledge needs or opinions of others and don’t see a problem with this.

    I think that if we are unhappy, this is all we need to know. And that a person can step away PURELY because it is not working for them. And I think if a codependent has gotten to the point where they want to call it quits, they will be right in their decision.

    I think that these ‘relationships’ are inherently flawed and are inherently one-sided.
    The dominant/abuser will use lines like you are selfish etc, because it is in line with their never-ending bottomless pit need to take.
    it works for them, too.
    And only the individual can realise: THIS IS SHIT> THIS IS FUCKED UP.
    AND fuck this projection mind-fuckery bull shit.

    WHO CARES ABOUT A RELATIONSHIP with a person who thinks that manipulation is right. Anyone who steps over the boundary and tries to control what another thinks and feels and believes, is acting narcissistically, is unhealthy -and others should question the point of interacting with such a person.

    Particularly since such people will eventually distort your perception -they are like mini cult leaders who need followers pretending that they are the centre of everything. Their entitlement is mental illness generating.

    The bottom line that I am making comes down to: who cares what is wrong or right? If so much friction, chaos, manipulation and bullying is perpetrated in the “cause” of being right, then ‘right’ is now wrong and the person fighting for it is full of it.

    They do not in fact want a relationship, they want to use people and have people cater to them.
    Who in their right mind would want to FORCE a person to ‘relate’ to them. This isn’t love, it isn’t even basic respect.

    Fuck such people.

    Also, I think that the irony is that if a codependent can recognise this argument as the hypocritical BS that it is then they have graduated enough from being within the toxic one-sided/dualistic pattern of relating to the world.
    This, I think, is the true pattern, unconscious thought pattern shared between narcissistic people/their victims. I prefer to avoid ‘narcissism’ as a term, just because of it’s wholly negative nature. I prefer over sensitive/tunnel vision inclined ….things that are a little more neutral.

    I do personally subscribe to as having these traits -but I am careful of the term “narcissist” because I mean to get out of judgments and the never-ending duality that comes from this approach to solving problems.

    I am making moves to cut my family largely out of my life, because i am fed up with the one-sidedness that, pretty much all of them exhibit. And I am sick to death of having to do it so tough because of being scape goated -ironically, as the identified narcissist, my guess is this is their label!-

    The bottom line for me is, that I have had to save my self and repair the loss/lack of self esteem, because my own family has never given me this.

    Even at the end of the day, I would argue quite simply: they cannot give me what I need in order to flourish, or even really to function. At the very most, I would in fact argue this point.

    Perhaps a ‘narcissist’ is in fact a person with acute sensitivity that they are not emotionally adept enough to be able to bring order and perspective to.
    …Likewise, I need to be around people who can encourage a more sophisticated perception of who I actually am, rather than dump me in the bin because I have high sensitivity. …I also notice that these same people have similar issues, and at the most, only have them a little less (if this is even the case -and even if or when it were, I would also argue that such a person makes a big deal about this difference -and that this approach is in fact narcissistic or negative, since it allows no way back for me.

    …What I am referrring to is the absence of forgiveness and unconditional love.
    This is what my family are like.
    I also know that they are like this because they do not in fact love or even accept themselves.
    Their treatment, rejection of me is, when all is said and done, only a reflection of how they treat corresponding aspects of themselves -and always was.

    I need to be around people who give me a way to grow and a hope for improving who I am. All my family do is condemn me -put me down, and use me to make themselves feel more powerful, in control etc
    This is because they are in fact hypocrits …and, because you are correct in identifying that often narcissists/ic people use the term narcissist to control potential victims.

    In short: a lot of people are full of shit.

    I am going my own way and am going to try to surround my self with people who have a “can-do” attitude of openness and of forgiveness. Who actually give me a way to change -as opposed to condemning me, with no chance of even being what they supposedly want me to become.

    I have noticed this pattern with these abusive personalities: even when you do what they want it is never enough and they only criticise you even more.

    They are hypocrits. They are abusers who call you abuser. And when they cricicise,, they see no good in you and offer you no room to be who you are, to make any mistakes or to even change in the first place.

    I am getting away from my family.
    And I think i mean to get away from terms like ‘narcissist’ since it reminds me too much of my shit selfish family and their nasty, bitchiness -their gossipping behind my back, their selling me out …their never ending effort to off load their flaws onto me and never look within at themselves.

    November 11, 2017
  • Elisa

    Actually, they are just a bunch of bitchy, scheming, back stabbing, cruel, self-serving, selfish, low life ass holes.

    Fuck them.

    I am done with them. I am done clinging onto people who demonstrate so little love towards me.

    I am better off alone and distanced greatly from them. They fucking suck as human beings.

    November 11, 2017
    • Lucy Rising

      Elisa, thank you for your comments and I’m so sorry for the misery you have endured at the hands of your family members. It’s clear to me that the term “narcissist” has in itself become a trigger for you, no doubt because these people have repeatedly applied it to you. One of the most cruel and insidious tools of narcissists is this kind of attack, in which they constantly work to convince you that you are the selfish, unloving, dishonest person in the relationship. You are taught over time to doubt your view of reality and not trust your own feelings of self-compassion and self-protection. Nothing is worse than doubting your own sanity in this way and feeling you must direct your hatred to yourself. I can see how this treatment has filled you with rage, and it makes me extremely angry too that this abuse has been done to you over and over.

      I have a feeling that in spite of the confidence with which you wrote your comments, you actually are filled still with doubt as to whether your feelings are valid and you are viewing the situation accurately. Let me assure you they are, and you are. Getting away from these people will help you have more confidence in that and start you down the road to healing and finding peace. It is okay to vent your rage for awhile as I’m sure it has built up tremendously over your lifetime. Most importantly of all, do all you can to love yourself and have compassion for yourself. Those things will heal you faster and better than anything.

      Again, I’m so sorry and I’m glad you are at the point where you will move on with your life and focus on people who will support you. I wish you every success in this!

      November 11, 2017
  • Joseph

    I had been critical of a narcissist that I think very well of and caused her a narcissistic injury that ‘broke her heart’.

    So in her rage, she became vindictive and shared a link from someone on Facebook that had suffered narcissistic abuse. The post from the link was about narcissism, how a narcissist will never apologize if they hurt you, there will never be any closure, so the best thing to do is go no contact. She then posted an emoticon that showed she was thinking this over.

    The sharing of a link about narcissism when you are a narcissist is absolutely off limits as far as I’m concerned. The narcissist is callously minimizing the abuse of someone they don’t even know.

    So in her very next FB post, she shared a link that noted “Sometimes you have to teach people a lesson in silence.” Which is the discard phase and subsequent silent treatment.

    From what I understand, when a narcissist projects something onto someone else, whatever they projected is usually a reflection of their behavior.

    Since her original post got FB likes from people that don’t understand her disorder, I felt I needed to counter the allegation by explaining why I’m not a narcissist.

    Currently, we aren’t speaking. So this is actually my chance to ride off into the sunset with the no contact action.

    It’s unfortunate, I love her, but there is nothing more I can do. Enough is enough.

    July 28, 2018
    • Lucy Rising

      Yes, this is a classic example of the behavior I was referencing in this post, you’re correct. Very frustrating for you I’m sure, and you were right to defend yourself. Likewise it’s true that arguing with her is not going to get you anywhere, and your best move is to move on and put the whole thing behind you as best you can.

      July 29, 2018
  • Nichole

    What if your narcissist readily admits his faults, then turns around and lists yours too? Is that still narcissism?

    July 10, 2019
    • Lucy Rising

      Nichole, the question is, is he just saying he admits his faults, or does he really recognize and regret them? Narcs are really good at lying and acting, and will say anything if it serves their purpose. It’s another thing altogether for someone to truly see his faults and recognize them as bad, feel remorse over them, and try to improve. Go by his behavior rather than his words. If he brushes off his own culpability as unimportant and actually wants to focus on the ways in which the fault lies with you, he could very well be a narcissist.

      July 10, 2019

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